We can certainly discuss this amount vs range thing. Can you guys help me out saying specifically in relation to it:

Do you feel you need added range to be able to run PVE content, or just to PVP, or both?
Are you asking for bonus to amount AND bonus to range or bonus to range INSTEAD of amount?

Not sure when it gets to sisi but there will be plenty of time before release to play with it.

When are you going to add another missile-using "faction"? So far, out of the Sisters plus all the pirate factions ships, the only one that isn't g++n-based is Guristas.

It's okay for EVE to be primarily a g++n-based game, but it'd be very nice to just have two different non-g++n-basedpirate/pseudo-pirate factions, so that there is something to choose between.

So add another missile-based faction, please.

Maybe you should reflect on that a bit then. You're introducing another $1-billion+ ISK battleship with the likelihood that you'll have to immediately revisit it. Again. Meanwhile, we're again talking about nerfing another Pirate battleship, the jury is still out on the new Marauders, the other Pirate battleships need a balance pass - and we still haven't touched base on Black Ops.

Shelve the Nestor, gather some feedback for the next few months and re-introduce new Pirate battleships (including the Nestor), Black Ops, any adjustments to Marauders and address the abysmal warp mechanics for battleships.

It should suffer the same issues all battleships suffer, and that's getting from point a to point b without dying.

Someone beat me to it!

http://i.imgur.com/tTJXrN8.jpg

Imagination only goes so far until you have to balance out a ship based on its ecology.

SOE is a humanitarian organization and explorers. There ships should match that. The first two ships (astero and stratios) fit that moniker. The Nestor battleship though, while it fits the SOE setup, is not practical to be used by the Eve player (no one would realistically use this 2 billion isk ship in any realistic form outside of ship spinning in a station). It is not worth it....

But just because it is not worth it, does not mean we have complete liberty to add in whatever we believe will make it worth it (I'm just as guilty of having grand re-imaginations of this vessel).

I'd like to see CCP's second going on this ship. Because while the current ship fits the Sisters of Eve ethos, the ship has no actual or practical use in the game at the moment. This doesn't mean that it should be usable by everybody for anything for any reason, but it should have a real stated purpose. Right now the concept of a exploration battleship does not fit the current biology of the game (it is a nice concept, but does not work in a practical manner).

Okay, another short update:

Adding role bonus: 100% bonus to remote armor repairer range

We agreed that this will make quality of life a lot better when attempting to use the remote repair bonus without adding too much power.

Possibly a more detailed post in a couple hours regarding the discussion on black ops/bridging/cloaking and the all-over-the-place design, but I'm super busy atm and just wanted to make sure you guys knew about this change as soon as possible.

Thanks

And I sure hope the coming Cald/Min faction ships, that BS has the same repair bonuses but for shields!

where this logic breaks down is when a logi fc or pair (or possibly boosting wing commanders) flies brick tanked t3s with many sebos and all the Nestors assign logi drones to them meaning logi repping is much faster, plus having a bonus to optimal range and mwd speed aids in reps landing quick. Alongside being able to use a mix of logi drone sizes and therefore applying quick small repping to keep the primaried ship alive before the larger reps land.

it obviously will not replace dedicated logi cruisers, but it provides a different form and puts the mechanic in a ship that has considerably high ehp alongside some offensive capabilities.

Agreed. As a matter of fact, I think people are missing what SoE ships are all about. They're about long deeps space authonomous exploration. The reason Astero and Stratios have cloaks is because their counterparts have them, but that's not what the ships are about.

Nestor builds on the exploration theme very well. It sports the same Amarr and Gallente bonuses + optimal laser range, which makes it less dependant on resupplies. It also has a Scan strenght, a very useful bonus for any wormhole ship. We could argue that the virus strength is wasted, but then it's sort of a "free bonus", plus it gives the ship something to do when Relic or Data sites are being cleaned up (remember, WHs still have Sleepers there).

The two remaning bonuses, armor repair amount and range, give the ship a triple bonus - first, it can keep fixing its drones, meaning less dead drones, more authonomy, safer to keep even slower drones in attack and thus more dps; second, it can act as a central ship for a WH team, a sort of "combat logi"; and third, when combined with others of its kind, it makes for a hell of a spider tanking setup, particularly when taking into account its already substantial tank.

The ship makes more than worthy successor to the already impressive Navy Geddon, while adding a whole bunch of useful stuff on top of it. Honestly, now that it has the range bonus to reps, I love it.

So what is the issue?

With a cloak it would be able to remain discrete while it goes about its exploratory business but could still get into danger jumping gates. With a jump drive, it bypasses all the risk of jumping a gate... that would be OP in my opinion.

Do don't understand your point. I realize jump drives already exist if that's what you are saying.

What i was trying to say was a tanky battle ship with the ability to cyno in one someone is far more overpowered that a BS with a cloak that has to actively hunt his own prey.

you have a very good point on the assignment of logi drones, imho that should be changed. yahh i made a similar suggestion earlier on page 9

WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

It doesn't put a RS out at all. There is still no other ship able to solo L5s etc BUt a RS and carriers. This ship might give a Domi for a run for it's money, but the RS is still the passive beast

I think anyone who was serious about this ship gave up when the "all over the place" concept of the ship was deemed intentional.

At this size, the main thing it will be doing is combat sites. I could support a scanning bonus still, but the hacking, RR bonuses need to go and full combat integration needs to be implemented.

Or on the complete other side of things, it needs to abandon its combat role and go full exploitation support role, with a fleet hanger, and ship maintenance hanger (probably make it so only covert ops capable ships can be stored in it).

I'm curious as to why you didnt feel the need to make it similar to a black ops ( minus the jump portal, but has its own jump drive ) as this ship with the remote rep bonuses ( tweaked some for capacitor transfers as a RR bs is atrocious for capacitor ) it would be perfect for small scale black ops fleets. There is currently no viable covert ops cloaking ( or black ops ) logistics ship in eve. A remote repair legion is pretty costly ( i know the nestor costs more ) for a mediocre job considering the 1.3-1.4b+ price tag. Remote repair tengu's have some some action but due to the price and short range, they aren't completely viable. This ship has the potential to be the first Black Ops fleet logistic boat ( that actually has enough range to rep someone on the other side of the cyno ) but you are diverting away, claiming a 2b+ ship should be an exploration boat ( to follow suit ) but not a black ops ship (because it would be over powered.)

You can easily counter spider tanking BS formations with bombers, even the added range of the Nestor isn't enough to spread them to far apart.

using rep drones on a ship where its majority of dps comes from drones is just plain stupid in most cases

Mordus faction ships

Role Bonus:
Either 50% to missile velocity or 25% to Missile explosion radius

Caldari Bonus:
5% to rate of fire of missiles per level

Minmatar Bonus:
7.5% to shield boost per level

I would also like to see them be fast more around Minatar ship speeds.

A jump drive, especially a covert capable one, would be a massive boost to the Nestor's ability to travel around Kspace but wouldn't help it at all in Wspace, where its reduced mass will really shine. A cloaked movement bonus would allow the Nestor to travel much more quickly from wormhole to wormhole, scouting its way through and running any sites it finds. I think a lot of us agree that the probe bonus is nothing more than a curiosity as no self respecting BS pilot would fly through hostile space without a scout, but the virus strength bonus and reduced mass would make it viable for running wh ghost sites and supporting a small fleet in combat. The major problem though is it would spend far to much time exposed and vulnerable without a cloak speed bonus to allow it to avoid detection and align cloaked.

My Impression of putting the virus stregth bonus on a Battleship hull is for use in high level Ghost sites since you don't need to travel very far for the first can and can survive the damage. I agree with you that the Stratios performs extremely well for Data/Relic sites both in wh and Kspace and has been shown to handle Ghost sites but only by sacrificing a lot for added tank.

Drone use in whs is more difficult than anywhere else but is still effective. As the only weapon system, drones will get eaten by sleepers but when your ship can draw aggro with turrets of its own and is careful to keep its drones within easy recall range then they are still viable as a weapon system. Both of these capabilities are within the Nestor's capability by deploying sentries for long/med ranges and light drones for frigates that get close.

To be clear I don't want to restrict the Nestor into wh exploration. I am an exploration pilot that spends about the same amount of time roaming low, null, and wh and enjoy each for their challenges and rewards. I mearly wish to allow the Nestor to reach its full potential and see as much of the universe as I do.

I never lost a single one, flying logi in Incs for years, so the answer to this question is probably no. However they are not that useful without the logi bonuses on them and more or less a wast on a ship that got 125m-¦ and a drone damage bonus.

A full set of T2 large RR drones reps 450 armor every 5s, or 90 armor per second. A T2 RR does 384 every 4.5s or 85.3 armor per second. Adding gang link bonuses you get up to 116,4 armor per second out of them and this is for a single utility high slot, not even taking the 50% bonus of the hull into account, while the drone bay can be utilized for 600-700 dps on a drone focused hull.

I think keeping the utility on the reps and gearing the drones to damage will work out better. From my own experience, flying something similar with the old paladin as full RR gang setup worked very good in combination wtih logis or other marauders, it is a bit like having a halve of a logi build into your dps BS on grid, and I guess with the bonuses it it more like having 1-2 logis in form of one BS, that still can deal ok dps with drones.

Micro Jump Drive.

The price is part of the discussion because of the source. The source is servant sisters of EVE loyalty. The value of each loyalty point from any corporation is determined by the reward with the best yield. In this case, the Astero. Meaning If one were to farm out 400,000 LP from the sanctuary, they could either buy 20 Astero BPCs and sell either the BPC or the constructed ships for 100-120m ISK, for a net of around 2.2 billion isk... or they could lose money.

So whether or not the market price for the Nestor is 2.2 billion isk or nothing (the latter seeming more likely), and whether or not one chooses to sell or keep their Nestor (again, latter is most likely), they will still pay, at the very least, 2.2 billion isk in loyalty points.

The price of the Nestor is already determined. Unless the market for the Astero crashes (not likely), the nestor is, right now, worth 2.2 billion isk.

Thus, the general gist of this thread so far is the stats proposed in the original (and subsequent) posts simply do not fit the current value of the nestor.

I agree that a ship's value should come from its use to players but in reality that only shifts prices slightly when compared to the cost of producing the ship in the first place. In most instances, the price of a ship is based on the cost of materials plus a mark up to account for man hours put into its production. In this case, the mineral cost (if any) is negated by the LP cost, in man hours, to produce.

The Nestor suffers in this regard for being a pirate battleship (LP cost must considerate other ships in class), Highsec markup, and having plenty of high value and in demand items available with the same LP (inflating the isk/LP ratio). All these factor come together to produce a ship that will cost ~2.2 bil, no matter what its capabilities are. So the issue comes to why anyone would fork over the LP to put a ship on the market when no one is willing to purchase it and they have so many other, easier to sell options to choose from.

Other Pirate faction BSs don't suffer from these problems nearly as much and are further suppressed by their availability outside of LP stores. This lowers there price and, along with having an established value in fleets, increases their demand, further encouraging people to produce them.

P.S. I do hope it doesn't appear that I'm picking on you Savira, your comments are just easier for me to respond to intelligently

Just wondering what the word is (if there is one). Last I heard you couldn't really say anything yourself, but there was going to be some team discussion. Just curious if anything came of it.

I'm suspicious of comments that suggest .5 space isn't high-sec....

Nobody's going to blob these unless there's an actual advantage to doing so, and I don't think there would be. Scout drones aren't well suited to that type of combat since they're too susceptible to smartbombs.

...give it the ability to jump to covert cynos so that it can useful as an exploration ship. Replace the scanning and hacking bonuses to tractor and salvage so that it can be used to run sites or support in exploration in some way.

Without a covert cloak, and at its price, no one will be risking it any other way than jumping it into an empty system to run a site. And if someone is there to lite the covert cyno, they likely already have the analyzer on their ship and the BS doesn't need the bonus.

The primiary drones in PvP huh. I'm guessing you don't PvP much huh. I see EC 300s, warriors, hobgoblins a TON more then I see sentries is PvP. Sentries are rarely used in PvP. I see them much more in PvE.

And I have covered why the Nestor won't cost 2bil or more, I won't go over it again. Plan for the first couple months it costly about that but it will go down.

In exploring, it still doesn't need the virus or probing bonuses as it is better in every situation to use a more nimble ship with covert cloak to move around and find sites. It does however have a great set of attributes to run complexes especially with an RR partner. It is perfect to be an exploration command ship, jumping into to pick up loot or run complexes, provide repairs, restock supplies, or move your loot out of a deep null sec system.

Maybe if we think on it, we could come up with something else very interesting for it to do in relation to exploration as a type of exploration command ship.

maybe like this:
[url]http://www.imagebanana.com/view/mejsr4op/Nestor.jpg[/url]Nestor

As to the Nestor, I feel like the discussion has grown stale. All the major players have made their cases and defended them well against questioning, griefers have been exposed, and all arguments have been considered and posted on by those interested. Currently all we are doing is rehashing old points...

I have an idea for being able to use the Nestor as a RR boat without making it OP, but still offering its utility in an interesting way. This idea will require some tweaking so please don't take it as a final product, but I feel that the concept is worth looking into.

NESTOR

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
250% bonus to logistic drone repair amount
50% bonus to large energy turret optimal range

Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 6 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 11250 PWG, 680 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 8900 / 9950 / 9900
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200 / 1044 / 5.9
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 / .18 / 56000000 / 13.97
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 465
Cargo Capacity: 500

Fuel Bay Capacity: 1250m3
Corporate Hangar Capacity: 1000m3

Can jump to Cynosural and Covert Cynosural beacons
Jump Range: 3.5 ly
Can fit Logistical Drone Link Augmentor

---

Logistical Drone Link Augmentor

500% bonus to Shield Maintenance Bots optimal range and 250% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bots optimal range
100% decrease to drone speed

Can only be fit by Sisters of Eve ships

CPU: 100
PG: 1

-- Med Slot

Activation Cost: 250

---

This would effectively give it the ability to choose between combat or logistic drones. Almost 1000 dps with sentries, and about 350 dps with just its pulses. This would also make its logistics drone almost like logistics sentries with a 30km range. An ability unique to this ship as only SOE ships can fit the mod. Please don't make the argument that the module is too limited in number of ships as it can be applied to 3 ships. There are many mods in this game that can only be fit on 4 ships.

I took the analyzing and probing bonuses off because any ship that lights you a cyno to come in is very likely to have the bonuses already. You don't need them in combat, so they seemed a little redundant.

The rep is ~3 unbonused large RR. It has a corporate hangar to serve as a type of exploration command ship. I have heard arguments that too large of a bay would make other ships irrelevant, but the bay is only large enough to carry salvage and backup mods. It requires a second player to travel, so it is fairly balanced in its utility/effort ratio. The next step up in transportation is covert bridging a covert hauler which takes 1 more account for about 6 times the carrying capacity.

It definitely shouldn't have a ship maintanence array as that would allow too much mobile refitting in combat. With a carrier you are limited to sitting ontop of it, but a BS can move too much.

The numbers I used are definitely debatable and I'm sure CCP would bring them in line if they like the idea, but what do yall think about the concept? Logistical sentry drones that are unique to this ship, and covert jump capable exploration command ship. Capable of aiding or shooting, but not OP at both at the same time

**Edit**

I put the repair amount bonus on the ship so that you could use the module for the cruiser and frigate, but give them a reasonable bonus to repair amount for their size, or none if seen fit. It would still allow them to provide rep or dps.

Definitely didn't read all of the 60 pages before I started posting. I got into the conversation a bit late.

I feel like it should be made more difficult to fit the RR in the highs, and focus it to the drones so that imbalance doesn't happen. I see the potential problem if someone wanted to just stack RR in the highs and have the logi drones.

If it were balanced where it couldn't realistically sustain the RRs in the highs, I feel like the bonus given is roughly appropriate at ~3 large RR, that would then give it a more hard line limit and keep it from just being over the top rep ship.

I gave it the same range as the BLOPs BS base jump distance. I figure that it would be considered OP at a greater range than that, and I would have to agree. As to bringing a pvp or pve ship in your carrier, the benefit of this ship is that it can be both. Bring a long a depot and you can swap before you jump to either or. For bridging across the whole map, your carrier is probably better suited.

This would liken itself to bridging to one of multiple people within a region, and have the ability to have multiple roles within a variety of situations.


Do you agree?

@Savira Terrant: I agree that randomly throwing every bonus in existence at this ship is ridiculous in some parts of this thread. In fact the original design already does that. In reference to having new and interesting mods or bonuses though, I disagree. Maybe my concept isn't the best, fair enough, but we shouldn't be afraid to come up with reasonable new ideas to make the game a more fun place at any point. Just coming up with it was part of the fun for me. Numbers aside, I feel like logistic sentry drones could still be an interesting unique change for the SOE line.

Regardless of what it is, I do hope that the ship becomes something unique and interesting in the eve environment that can improve the complexity of PvP and PvE.

What would like to see

Stick with the space priest thing
+ cap (for real) either it needs a huge capacitor or a logi-esque bonus to rep capacitor used (weaker) preferably the former.
- any sort of laser bonus, make the highs 5&5 turrets or missiles a la Geddon.
- scanning bonuses, seriously scanning battleship.....its silly, there is nothing that could persuade me to fly a battleship into a relic site
+ covert jump capabilty
+ black-ops style cloak ability without the instant lock capability, scan res + cloak penalty is enough of a pain in the ass.


Really, I don't feel that a full cov-ops cloak on a battleship is nearly as bad as the "common wisdom" seems to dictate, its still a battleship, and not a particularly fast one.

Plus drones are of limited bang without no range/tracking and the slot layout. But a tanky, jumpable battleship class logi with a full on drone compliment actually sounds like a LOT of fun.

How much damage? You are going to need most of the lows for tank...unless you are going to use a shield fit, which would be relatively underwhelming.

You are talking 465 damage with sentries without all of the DDAs and you aren't going to be stacking tons of OMNIs because you are going to need most of the mids for SeBos prop mods and cap stuff. You are going to barely have a T1 dominix if you use a pile of DDAs and only use a three (or two) slot bufffer.


Plus rep range is pretty terrible and its going to take forever to lock anything coming off the cloak.... Its also pirate battleship and IS going to be ~by far~ the most expensive of the herd.

Way to not read.....

Notice I was talking about Omni's and prop mods? One would note that those are MID slot modules, you areent going to have many lows after the TANK. I could get into how **** the drone range is going to be but that meh.

....and yes you are going to need cap mods, jumping leaves you at 20% cap when you land.

With no cap bonuses?

....and how many transfers exactly?

What about this:

NESTOR
Developer: Sisters of EvE

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
500% bonus to remote armor repair and remote hull repair system range
200% bonus to remote armor repair and remote hull repair amount
-50% power need for remote armor and remote hull systems

Slot layout: 6H, 6M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 11250 PWG, 680 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull): 8900 / 9950 / 9900
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200 / 1044 / 5.9
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 105 / .18 / 56000000 / 15.97
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 600
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km / 85 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 465
Cargo Capacity: 800

Fuel Bay Capacity: 1250m3
Jump Range: 3.5 ly

Too much to quote.

475 DPS with at best a 55km range.....less than a thorax, both range and damage, not to mention I would like to see my T2 battleship useful for something OTHER than shooting bombers around and quick ganks (ok not so quick if you saw the sin gang that killed a Nyx the otehr day)

Basically I want to see T2 battleships that can y'know battle, if I need to back them with carrier priced pirate battleships so be it.

To be frank I don't care about PvE, and even then did you see the video of a guy doing a C5 site solo in a Vargur? Drone reps have a million downfalls, particularly when you have to deal with the persistant bomber wings that infest EVERY fight in nullsec. I do it, they do it everyone does it.

I want to take a moment to point out that the SoE ships have always been primarily aimed toward PvE use while still keeping their ability to do PvP as a consideration. It's completely evident in the design of the Astero and Stratios, as well as Rise's introduction of them. There's no reason to suspect that the Nestor is any different at all.

what about giving and extra high slot for a cloak for the frigate atleast, if not 2 for a probe launcher also!

This, the rest is just details.

Guys, it's supposed to be a w-space useable battleship, and it's actually pretty good in that respect without being overpowered.

The problem is that because it's on SoE LP, it's just too expensive. If it were in literally any other LP store, it would be fine.

And therein lies the problem.

Its not a bad ship, in fact its actually very good. Its just a bad SoE ship. If this ship BPC were a drop from the rouge drone 10/10 (It actually exists, or so I hear) or anywhere else it would be a great ship. But at it stands its too cost prohibitive for what it brings to the table and without a jump drive it breaks the theme of the sisters ships.

Ya know what, I think we're going about this all wrong. Everybody is trying to make this ship more coherent and useful. I think we should all just brainstorm role bonuses that we could keep adding to the hull without ever making it OP. Let's make it the hull of a 100 nearly useless bonuses. The less useful the better.

Like....

-50% cap usage of salvagers.
+50% target painter falloff.
+10 to drone sensor strength.
25% increase to firework rate of fire.
Can Fit Snowball De-melter.

Maybe the reason Rise stopped replying to this thread, is all the hostile comments he gets.

And to bring it back to being unfair, that increase in range was one of the most asked for things at the time. Looking at the alternatives a BS was never a goto for profession sites and likely won't ever be. Additionally the lack of mobility associated with battleships and the fact that it's role competes with a variety of capable ships including a covert cloaking cruiser made this a hard sell to begin with, but at it's base they thought up something pretty innovating in the very low mass. Also considering the feedback has fallen well short of focused I'd guess their at least thinking about it hence the lack of response. The concern regarding what can be added to it that would make it desirable across all areas of space is a pretty big one and I know I can't come up with an easy answer save the one thing we know isn't coming, a covert cloak.

scan stuff and
1. hack and chase spew loot (perfect for Astero)
2. hack and tank high alpha/GTFO (perfect for Statios)

3. blitz something that is basicly a level 4 mission
(needs a bs that can be there fast and undetected in the first place - not talking cov ops cloak here - and no, I will not be scanning in a BS)

4. dps for wormhole sites
(needs a cheap bs with non-cap dependent omni-resist-armor-tank (preferably gallente profile since it won't get jove profile),
non-cap dependent gank other than drones
make repdrones the thing for wormholes for sites that don't require guardians for a bs fleet
absolutely no need for a any sneaky stuff for this ship)

Why do people think that mass is a relevant factor for using a battleship in a wormhole? You're not seriously thinking that you'll double the fleet size just because the ship's mass is half that of a normal battleship?

Corrected text below:

So if everyone can bring their alt along in an additional battleship instead of scouting wormholes like they should be, yeah that makes almost no difference for completion times because the limiting factor is the spawn pattern, not dps application and thus negative fleet safety.

Question on the issues with RR, is it just the range that makes it unattractive for that purpose or something else? BS mobility? Cap considerations?

I was mainly looking at the implications of spider tanking a group of these, in which you do bring up a good point with the domi's bonuses, though, and not being sure here is why I ask, I would have thought there would be some novelty in the idea of the fact that with 4 reps this ship outreps a T2 logistics ship, granted at much lower range, leaving 3 highs open for other things. I'll grant it's not a "gamechanger" in itself, but fundamentally doesn't seem like a bad idea, offensive inferiority to the Domi aside.

Good at a few different things that come together to accomplish a job you would normally need multiple ships to carry out. quote]

exactly.

It also has half the mass of a normal battleship. If nothing else the Nestor might find a niche in wormhole space PVE.

Question further as I'm confused. Why would you need 4 energy transfers? Especially when running only 2 reps (most RR domi fits I've seen run 2 of each)? And how does this affect damage? Also do you consider the domi the only useable drone BS?

I guess I'm still confused then as per what you are saying a 2 rep/2 cap xfer RR domi group doesn't work, also that doesn't really answer the question of damage and the need for cap xfers to get it. So long as we are simply looking at the RR abilities this ship are obviously superior and leave room unless you for some reason feel the need to double the cap xfers on the Nestor compared to a typical Domi fit unless I'm wrong and RR domi's always work under 60km due to never fitting DLA's.

The problem I see with the Nestor is the same problem I see with the Astero and the Stratios which is: There is always a better choice.

Cov ops frigates are better than the Astero and also cheaper and have a much reduced cloak reuse timer. Tech III cruisers are better than the Stratios and only a tiny bit more expensive and have a much reduced cloak reuse timer (with the cov ops subsystem). The Nestor is too much of a hodgepodge to be a better choice than any other ship. If you're using it for logistics a tech II logi is better in terms of cost, overall tank and manoeuvrability. If you're using it for exploration cov ops or tech III are better simply for cost and ability to GTFO. If you're using it for dps there are a lot of other choices that are better and pretty much all of them are a lot cheaper.

I simply don't see the point in using any of the SOE ships which is a shame because they're nice looking ships (except the Nestor which, considering the ring at the front doesn't actually have any real purpose, looks wrong).

Yes, you're quite correct on both points. For 4/10 any cruiser or assault cruiser is better than the Stratios on cost.

To be honest, I live in nullsec and had completely failed to consider the uses in highsec. Yes, I can see the use of the Stratios in high sec exploration. That is quite a niche use though, as you say.

I recommend CCP implement a cloak velocity bonus rather than buff the fitting potential

Well, until they all get "rebalanced".

Nestor = exploration and possable prolonged deployment on exploration roams. it is not nessesarly a pvp ship, i wish people would stop theorycrafting it as a pvp ship.. its that kind of BULL-POO which got the stratios nerfed cause of damn EFT warriors.

What would make Nestor viable for me: INSTANT MJD ACTIVATION.

Nullsec solo exploration, travel fitted with i-stabs, w-stabs, cloak, MJD and MWD. Gatecamp evasion through MJD right off gate cloak with fast align to warp after it. Catchable by a ridiculously good camp setup but viable enough to function as a solo boat for running nullsec complexes. Would like this.

PVP: Instant MJD would allow surprise sniping when not scrammed, and also elusion. Nasty ceptor orbiting you? Lock him, MJD, deploy Curators and see if he's on the ball to change his movement vector before the sentry lock delay ends. Risk: scram. Competition: Dominix with drone tracking and Armageddon with neut range.

Edit: balancing factor 3 minute MJD cooldown, get it right or die in a fire.

Anyone who tries to solo with the Nestor outside of high sec is not going to make it very far. BS hulls are inherently dependent on a fleet to move safely through hostile territory. In the Nestor's case, the ideal fleet would be set up for long term exploration due to SoE's preference for the role. Towards that end, having the Nestor support that fleet in either a support or a command role would be preferable than making it a BS hull with unreal solo survivability.

P.S. I think low sec would be far to crowded for the Nestor to operate in, the price on its hull is to high for any random pirate not to call in their friends to take it out and it can't simply jump over systems unless Savira is successful in convincing Rise of a jump drive's need on the ship. I would think that the Nestor would be more useful as a support vessel in the depths of null or deap in wh space. Both of which could provide a small fleet with plenty of activities to keep it occupied, PvE and PvP alike, as long as they had access to support facilities that they could take with them. An Orca either requires a player to sit out on all the fun or use an alt. A carrier would work wonders in null and be cheeper than a Nestor but would be useless in Wspace where an orca would be the only option. However, operating an Orca in wh space brings the added worry of collapsing holes, separating your fleet, and prematurely ending the whole op as pilots are forced to head back into Kspace to regroup.

Looking at the discussion so far (didn't read it all but enough to get a decent idea) this thing is missing a leg and has 3 arms....

As for the bonuses as currently noted...
crap
give it up and give it covops or a no cyno required jumpdrive

as-is it'll be seriously cap deficient and very vulnerable after burning 95% of that cap to jump.

On top of that, to be worth the 2.2 billion isk pricetag this is going to have it'll need something major for it to be anything more than an overpriced doorstop.

... it is my hope that the overall warp speed increases was CCP's first step in their battle against ease-of-movement-through-jumpdrives/bridges and that the need for planning when throwing ones fat across the map is reintroduced (having umpteen logged off cyno alts scattered all over the place does not really need planning).

the ship follows the line of the other ships, apart from the armor repping capabilities, just deal with it and let CCP put in the game.....if people wants to spend 2 billions in the hull, let them do what they please.......it doesnt affect anyone, just saying

My EFT Fu is not the one that is limited. If you cant see the benefits of a ship having the majority of its slots focused into its primary tank then, Im sorry but your beyond all hope of help. 5 mid slots is plenty to fit a prop mod 3 projection mods and still have a slot left over for utility, on the lows a 4/3 tank/dps spread is preferable to a 4/2 or 3/3.

Who is going to buy a 2+ billion isk hull and not spring for a 70 million isk imperial navy eanm though?

A 3 slot Nestor armor tank is strictly worse than a 4 slot domi tank, giving them both 3 lows for added damage. I just double checked and the domi appears to only tank 1 less dps (cap not considered) if you're using t2 eanms... (This is using the Abaddon as a comparison base as it has 4% armor and you can use 6 slots to tank- the Nestor's base resistances haven't been published as far as I know though.)

In fact it looks like the sweet spot where the Nestor tanks better than a domi is when it uses a 5+ slot tank vs a domi with a 6+ slot tank (both one active repairer.) Anything less than that and the reactive armor hardener seems to give the dominix an edge.)

So if you fit 2 damage mods to both ships then the domi will have a better tank. If you fit one damage mod to each ship and dual rep then the domi has a better tank.

That is just tragically sad.

My EFT fu is weak though, so perhaps I missed something?

Get rid of the Energy turret bonus/etc, ADD Drone range/tracking bonus & ability to fit those drone control units.

Pirate faction ships only get one bonus for each racial ship skill.

CCP expressed that they will not introduce new ships with clearly overlapping roles in the future.

SOE developement boss:
"Okay, people! The designgoals of this ship is to stay hidden, while rescuing people from everywhere they could happen to be endangered."

Some designer at SOE:
"Hey gotcha, added a rescue-shuttle and shuttle-bay to the Nestor design... ready to go anywhere!"

Engineer:
"Oi, we did not manage to give this ship the resources to handle a covert cloak or give it any other cloak bonus, but instead we magically reduced the mass of the Nestor so it will be totally save wherever it will go! Oh, and also there is absolutely no need for a shuttle anymore, since the Nestor itself will now be able to land on planets and snuggle into space structures to rescue people... all hail the space magic!"

Designer:
"But... wait! It took so much work to design this really cool bay and shuttle! I want, want, want!"

Boss:
"Okay, okay. We leave the shuttle in the plans. But after each and every Nestor is built, we will send in an engineer to mothball this useless piece of trash!
Mh, but not being able to cloak might pose a problem... how will we keep it save and hidden now?"

Enineer:
"I have the perfect idea! We give this thing remote repairing amount bonus to boot and also a range bonus for good measure. That will show them!"

Boss:
"Okay. I never heard of an SOE operation supporting agressors with free spareparts, but if no one has a better idea let's do this. Now what will we do about the low scan resolution then? It would need the best of all battleships, to even remotely compete with the logistics cruisers out there!

Guy from marketing:
"Stop right there! We don't have development budget left, but with the right marketing we can sell this piece of s... I mean wonderfully designed beautiful hull as a trophy for capsuleer hangars!"

...

Lots and lots that was already mentioned by CCP before, just repeating the same old without actually adding any new argument.

Next a jump drive isn't actually an exploration tool at all. Someone has to light a cyno, which means that that person was the explorer, probably in a recon. A jump drive or a covert bridge is a bonus to rapid deployment. Furthermore if this had a black ops style jump drive it would be the most powerful thing capable of appearing through a covert cyno in terms of tank, gank, and rep. Speaking as a member of an alliance that regularly drops black ops battleships onto things, we would all switch in an instant to Nestors, cost be damned.

People are REALLY spoiled. THey want a ship with domi bonuses.. both of the,,, abaddon bonus, AND guardian bonus.. and covert ops bonus?

WTF guys? ARE YOU GUYS PLAYING THE SAME GAME AS I AM ?

I have to agree here, this ship is stupid, its super expensive, not really good at anything.

I can't think of any use for this ship for my high sec mission/scanning alt. And taking a ship this anemic, and this expensive into low/null, seems like you might as well self destruct it, since it won't last long at all.

It warps faster now guys every problem with the ship is totally fixed and it's now worth using.

Not.

People are askign TOO much of a signle ship. With all these bonuses.. the ship should be renamed to MacGyver

That is exactly what I meant to say. It already is the most bonused ship ever seen.


The ship is strong. The problem lies elsewhere, on the fact that logistic ships are TOO strong.

Exactly. Scrap the current design. Forget whatever plan you had originally. It isn't going to work. The ship is all over the place and doesn't do anything well enough to justify its price.

Rise, please read this:

I know sometimes I am a bit.. agressive when I complain of your ideas. But this time I agree with you. But I hope you can take this as an opportunity to eveluate somethign. Why people think all these bonuses are weak?


Because T1 and t2 logis are both far too powerful!!!!


Large remote repiarers shoudl be stronger. But logis of t1 or t2 shoudl be way way weaker. Think how much weaker they would need to be so this ship would be considered a good ship.

Well still can't think of a useful purpose for this ship.
..
Maybe a possible solution is to start adding in Hack/Relic stuff to missions? That way it could be useful there. Not saying that the Hack/Relic should be needed to complete the mission, just an added bonus on top. I don't know. Still just seems a massive waste of ISK for little actual benefit. Hopefully there is more to the Nestor that I am just not seeing.

[quote=Omnathious Deninard]
My alliance mates have tested it on sisi as a spider tanked BS and run it against spider tanked domi's.
It is far far superior to the domi in that set up.

This one's niche is exploration. Give it a Covert Ops cloak and you'll have thousands of happy campers...

Right, because they're so fast those darned things...

Simple idea:

What if we left its current middle of the road bonuses, and gave it its own module:

Remote Computation Subprocessor (high)

This module adds +10 to targeted ships virus strength.
This module reduces targeted ships probe scanning times by 50%

Tada. Exploration support ship with some teeth. Give it a nice hefty range bonus so that it's operational at around 100km to cover a whole site's worth of buddies from the middle, and you've got a sensible centerpiece of your exploration fleet.

I'm inclined to agree. There's been a few threads about battleships being dead or useless over the last few months, and the marauders threadnaught was probably the biggest I've ever seen, and unless CCP learnt from that thread, the Black Ops thread is going to be even bigger.

Until they've properly defined the existing BS roles, it's just too early to introduce a new battleship. Get that Blops balance pass done first. As others are suggesting, I'm leaning more towards making it a BC, at the moment.